In October 2026, I sat down to interview filmmaker Frank Durant and author Liza Rodman for a special bonus episode of the In My Footsteps Podcast. In the nearly hour-long show, we spoke about a wide range of topics. These included Liza’s incredible book The Babysitter, which is the story of how she discovered later in life that her childhood babysitter was in fact a soon-to-be convicted serial killer. We also speak about Frank’s connection to Cape Cod through his array of documentary films about the Lady of the Dunes (aka Ruth Marie Terry), Henry David Thoreau, and Sydney Monzon. This is the transcription of that interview, which I hope you will enjoy reading. A big thank you to Liza Rodman and Frank Durant for being a part of this interview.
Liza: I haven’t talked about The Babysitter in a long time, or all of your people, Sidney.
Chris: Start with just a little bit about your life growing up on Cape Cod. We can kind of segue into The Babysitter, but I want to give a little bit of general info about you and your connection to the Cape.
Liza: Okay. All right. Well, my aunt built a motel in 1966 in Provincetown, and it all started there because my aunt and my mother were best friends. And so that was really when Tony came into our lives in 1966. It happened very early because his mother was hired at the Royal Coachman. It was called the Royal Coachman. It's now called Sandcastle Resort. I think it's still there. It's 50 years old. I can imagine there's some mold in those walls. But there are, so my cousins and I would come for the summer, or at least we thought we. Would come for the summer. And then in 1968, my mother, who was divorced and fancy-free and had two little kids, decided to buy the motel across the street from the Royal Coachman, which was called Bayberry Bend. And it was a little strip motel like Cumberland Farms, man, you know? And seven cottages. So we lived in one of the, first we lived in one of the rooms and then we lived in one of the cottages and then of course Tony, they shared everything. So there was, he was doing dump runs and babysitting and I think he was also doing some carpentry work around the hotel. He was transporting kids to and from town. Everybody's dead now, so they don't talk about it anymore. But they were, you know, he was kind of part of our family in a way. And so is his mother, very much so. So we stayed in Provincetown until, we were there, starting in 1966 and left in 1972. My mother got remarried. Her husband was closeted, either that or he was bisexual. I don't know what he was, but Provincetown scared the hell out of him. So we, they sold, actually my grandfather, who was part owner of my mother's motel, Bayberry Bend, which I just told you about. He was one of the first people to do condos in Massachusetts. And he condoed Bayberry Bend and the cottages and then sold them off one at a time. So if you can imagine buying a little hotel room that looks like it's in a Cumberland Farms strip mall. I mean, I don't see the sense in it, but anyway, they sold it off and off they went in. And then I was back in Provincetown when I was a teenager. They owned the condo down in, so you know, you know where the old Holiday Inn used to be? Right before the fork that goes Bradford Street and Commercial Street. Right there, there's a condo complex across the street from the water, and we lived in there for several summers. And I spent my last summer of my senior year, between my senior year in college as a cocktail waitress at the Royal Coachman. They had bought a new, they've, I guess they erected a new building, and in that new building above that indoor pool was a cocktail lounge. It was seedy and dark inside and smoky and I remember standing there when out watching the TV when they, when it came on that Elvis had died. So that was the end of my Provincetown days. So pretty much from 1966 on and off till 1977.
Frank: Well, I'll set Chris up for the next question. When I read your book, The Babysitter, you made every character a human being. There was no cliché, and I just kept looking at, like, the mother-son relationship, almost. Like Ray Romano and his mom, just like the feeding of the food and conversations at the dinner table. And it wasn't, you know, there was nothing exploitative about it. You made every individual in that book real, and it was the family dynamic that really sold it to me. It's about a story of a little girl and not so much the babysitter, but everything that was going on during this time in Cape Cod. And it was, to me, it was probably one of the best summer reads I read it very long time.
Liza: You're very, very nice to say that. Thank you. I think that was because of the family, and this is always crazy to say because I know what the result was of all this. I know that man and what he did. But to me, on those days, to go into Cecilia's kitchen and she did, she had a husband at that point? I don't think she did. But it was just very family-oriented, that kitchen. And there were always people in and out. I'm sure it was as dysfunctional as it goes, but that's what I knew. So it felt normal to me, and it felt safer to me than my own situation, where my mother's out screaming up and down Commercial Street on a bicycle, who opened it up. So I mean, she wasn't a little, well, maybe she was. But she was young and doing her thing, and I understand it a lot differently now at 68 than I did when I wrote the book, even. So, but those were real characters to me. They were real people. And so I think it was easy to, well, I'm not going to say it was easy. There wasn't an easy thing about it, but they were so vivid and from such a critical time in my growing up that they were just there. So I'm glad they're on the page that way.
Chris: So I know from growing up on Cape Cod, Tony Costa was this man who was convicted of a couple of murders; he's been alleged to have committed four to eight, or who knows. So it's interesting that you have a connection to the man, almost like before he became this infamous legend. What, what do you remember about being around him when you were a kid? Like, do you have any stories? Anything you can recall about him or his mother?
Liza: Nothing really that isn't in the book, but you know, given, I pretty much poured. Everything I knew into that book, but central to it. First of all, he was killing while we were in his truck, while we were driving around town with him, and he was pushing us on the swing at that creepy little, I think it's a dog park now, but it was a playground at one time right next to the dairy king or whatever it was called. It's in the West End. And he was pushing us on the swing, and then he was going out and finding somebody to knock off. But what I remember is the kindness and what I remember is that I have a couple of memories that I wrote about in the book is in the woods because he would take us in there, but nothing nefarious. I wish I had something nefarious. I did not feel unsafe with him, and that's the irony of my story is that I was unsafe with my mother all the time, but not with Tony Costa, right?
Chris: So yeah, it's actually, I find it more interesting like I'm not fishing for, oh, you saw something. I actually find it more interesting that you're around this guy that ends up being a convicted serial killer, but yet you wouldn't have known, and you felt secure around him. I actually find that more interesting.
Liza: I know, right? And that I think is because as I first of all, my father was completely out of the picture. Second of all, I was coming into puberty, and I was all about cool, right? Because I watch my grandson now. He's like, I just want to be cool. That's what I want. I said, well, you know, and I'm thinking to myself, shit, I felt that way. I felt that way. And Costa was cool. He was cool, man. That's where I learned to smoke cigarettes was in his truck. He was cool. I thought he was cool, but I was 10 years old. I mean, you got to know and, my cousin, Jack, who is in the book, but not with his real name. He was there with me, but I left them out of the book for privacy reasons. But one of his perspectives matched mine. And you know that so unusual, even with siblings growing up in the same house, to have the same feeling about somebody; oftentimes that doesn't happen. But with Costa, it happened for both Jack and I, and Jack's a year or two younger than I am. But he thought he was cool too. And he was so cool to Jack. And I don't know whether it was because he was there. I don't know whether it was because he paid attention to us. I don't know whether it was because he bought us orange soda. I don't know what it was, but it was, and I think Cecilia was tied up in that. And you know, I read now other accounts of Cecilia. And even when I hear my co-writer talk about Cecilia, she talks about her as some sociopath that raised this crazy guy who's a serial killer. And it's almost like we're telling two parallel stories.
Frank: Well, there have been three books written really about what had happened there in the 1960s. Technically four, but we won't get into the fourth book. But you really hit the community; it fit like a glove when you were describing Provincetown. The different groups, but the community was present: the neighborhood, people; It was there with other books. It's more like this is a murder mystery. This is an investigation. This is just a one-sided way of saying this is what we thought the 60s were. You made it real because Provincetown still has that real strong sense of community. Your book was the only one that really captured it.
Liza: Thank you. We concentrated on that. For some reason, having been raised there so much of the time, some people obsess about their past, and I was one of those people. In that environment, that blue environment, the smell of the air, the cacophony of people. On the street, I mean, made me tolerant. It formed me in ways that I can't, sometimes I can't articulate them, because there was a feeling there of ease and of a party feeling. Now, um, there's this air is like a velvety cloak. It's kind of like why I like living down here, because there was a humidity in the air and then it cools off, and it was all very nurturing the environment there. And I still find it so when I go there, although, you know, I think what happened post-book ruined it for me. I just don't want to go back anymore. But I, or what happened, not post-book, but when we were going to launch the paperback.
Frank: If anybody was to read The Babysitter. I get attacked as a filmmaker. You're exploiting, you're trying to exploit the lady of the dunes, you're exploiting Henry Thoreau because you want to walk in his footsteps. Who are you? Yeah, I'm no Henry David Thoreau, but I kind of want to kind of, you know, if you read his words, you'll find the man. I tried to find the man walking on the national seashore. You didn't exploit in your book. This was your story. I'm present. I stopped myself and said, Am I exploiting the memory of Sidney Monzon by producing a short film just to show that she was more than just a victim? I'll wear that hat and say, sure, I want to take advantage and hope someone will see this and do research and remember that she was a human being.
Liza: I think, Frank, that what happens is that as artists, as creative people, we go, we find a rabbit hole and go down. Like, there's a certain amount of obsession in the process of creating that other people don't understand. And it's not about exploitation. It's about telling a story that we can't not tell for whatever reason. I always appreciated that about Sydney and you is that feeling of, well, I've got to tell this. I mean, that's the same thing happening to me now. You go down the rabbit hole, and you just don't come up until you've given it all the creative juice you have and all of the, I guess, representation it deserves. And this Costa story, let's remember this too, the way this Costa story has been told over the years. It has been nothing but sensationalized. And Chris, you brought up in the beginning about, um, he killed this one, and he killed that one, and supposedly he killed a bunch more. I don't believe any of that. What I believe is that we have captured, not we as writers, but between me and everybody else who's written about this has captured what happened. And part of what happened when we wrote the book is we did away with some of those rumors. That came up when In His Garden was written; I guess it was written and came out in the 1980s. So In His Garden didn't have the right research resources we had available to us in 2020. So we found that the women didn't, two women who did not die at the hand of Tony Costa. And believe me, we looked; we turned every stone over we could find. It was very difficult to have people get back to us and to be engaged in the finding of more victims. There are two victims in Philadelphia who I think may have been his, but they may not have been. Two killed with the same gun, killed at the same time, killed when he was out there, driving his Bonneville around, you know, with the bumpers falling off of it. So there may have been two more victims. But I think we captured it pretty well. And I think had we been allowed to go into the National Seashore land there where those burials took place and used legitimate GPR, if we'd found anybody else, but the family wouldn't let us do that. They put a stop to that. They had a connection at NPS, and they used it. And they were very frank about the fact that the family doesn't want it done. And so it's not going to get done because the guy who was heading up the NPS office in Truro was a friend of Joe Costa's, and you know what? I get it. If it were my family, I would want people writing about it either, but I had a personal connection. And I maintain that my personal connection really has nothing to do with any of them. It has to do with me, and it has to do with my parents and my upbringing and whether. They like it or not. I mean, I don't really give a shit if they don't like it. I did when I started the process. I really cared about what they thought about it and what they, and hoped that they would come to the table and give us some more insight. Because secrets never turn out well.
Chris: So Sydney Monzon is an alleged victim of Tony Costa. Frank and I, well, I kind of more tagged along. Frank has been wanting to do the story of Sydney. Yesterday he and I and a couple of others. We were out in Eastham filming some of the areas where Sydney probably was when she was growing up. And so, Frank, I wanted to bring you in and, you know, talk about your connection to Sydney. Because you dedicated the Lady of the Dunes documentary to her and just, you know, your thoughts about her. Her legacy, kind of her place in all of this.
Frank: The short film we're doing is really just to control the narrative and not have for. A sentence on her Wikipedia page is saying Well, she was a victim and she doesn't even have that title. They're saying she's the assumed victim. What's the exact wording that they use, because no one was ever found guilty of her murder. Well, the thing is, a blind man could tell Liza, was she in the same hole that was dug?
Liza: I know.
Frank: My impression would say, well, maybe he was involved with that. So I just felt they got him on two out of the four. Our job is done. We spent the time in the resources.
Liza: Yeah, I think that was it.
Frank: But I was shocked how the family of the victim was victimized by the community. They were ashamed of what happened to their daughter, and they had doors closed in their face. And I'm just thinking, okay, where’s the Christian community that we pride ourselves on? That just makes me sad about this woman's legacy. And the reason I said that this many times about why I dedicated Sydney, who had no connection to the late of the dunes, but a connection to Cape Cod. It was uneasy for a lot of people, for the first image they saw in my documentary was her high school photo with her beautiful eyes just looking back at you. And Chris, I think you were there. We had a free premiere at the Dennis cinema. As I was walking out, the film went on, and I could hear somebody in the crowd yell, "Oh my God," as soon as they saw Sydney’s face. They knew it was uncomfortable, and we're going to start talking about subject matter that a lot of people don't want to talk about. So that was my motivation. A lot of people who knew what was happening and kept their mouths shut.
Liza: Oh, the entire community, the entire community. That's true, the entire community. And think about what her sister has gone through all of her life. She had to move away. You know, who's contacted me since is some of Christine's (Gallant) siblings. Christine, who, again, is an alleged victim of Tony Costa, was never prosecuted. But the same thing, and the way Sydney got treated is really the way they all got treated. Even Pat and Marianne were treated like that. And why are we surprised when we're looking at the Cornell 7, as they're referring to them, which is ridiculous? Why are we surprised that women and the women in this story as well and even Avis were painted in the worst possible way? And this guy's running around chopping off heads and burying them all together. And the women, her skirt was too short. She was a drug addict. She was riding a bike. What else? She flirted with him at the Pilgrim Club. I mean, come on. And yet there it is. Over and over and over again. And you see it with Sydney Monzon, and you're seeing it 60 years later with this Jane Doe up in Ithaca, New York. It's a scene shit. Justifying the rape, justifying the violence. Justifying the violence because she was on drugs, after all. She was buying drugs from him, and she was stealing drugs with him, right? That's the other thing. She was involved in that robbery, and so they take her on instead of him. It's just, it's stunning. And so I hope that you do a bigger piece on her and the abuse that she suffered in that home, because from what I understand, it was no picnic living in that house that she grew up in. Of course she found herself right there. You know, and that, by the way, is not her fault. That's not her fault. That's her conditioning. And so it's a very important piece to remember that these are victims of trauma. And the more, you know, right now I'm working with self-emancipated people in the 1860s, working with their story. And this field of epigenetics that's coming online, where they're talking about people carrying trauma down through DNA, I suspect Sydney Monzon was, there was a lot of that going on. And I suspect Tony's kids probably have it too.
Frank: 20 years ago, I did a documentary on the clergy scandal where I was a child of that going on in Bristol County. I remember being sat down and asked, did anything happen to you? And we were just like, luckily nothing happened to us. It was the one church out of a thousand that wasn't having any issues. But I brought in priests, young and old, to explain: can we talk about what happened, where we had all these people being charged with 300, 400 cases? And like, how do we let thousands and thousands of these abused children get swept under the rug? And it was terrifying because there were people who wanted to see the film; other people did not want to see the film. And these are people who pride themselves as true Catholics. They just wanted to go away. And that was the point of the documentary, where it's different from 30 years ago or even 50 years ago. And so, yeah. So, I just felt your book, I think, was, I think meant to heal. Yeah.
Liza: Yeah, I mean, it certainly, you know, a lot of people have asked me that question in one book review, I mean, one book of another, was it cathartic? And as a writer, it's very hard to answer that question because it was cathartic to write the book. I'd been writing the book since I was 10 years old. So it was cathartic to finish it, to finally come to a place where I could get it on the page, all on the page, and get it out there in the public. And the more people, I can't tell you the number; I lost count of the number of people who said, Oh my god, I had a mother like that or oh my god, I knew Tony Costa or oh my god, I was Christine’s sister and I was supposed. To be there that night. I mean, the stories are endless of the people who have contacted me and said, Oh my God, you're writing my book. And so from that perspective, it was worth every single tear I wept because that's really. As a creative, you want to bring them in, bring people in. You want to bring them in and have them see your experience and relate to it. I'm sure as a filmmaker, same thing when I saw Lady of the Dunes, I was captivated. By that film. And I think that's a great film. And I love the subject matter, and I loved being in that room with people I knew; you could feel the energy in that room. The people who knew that story and didn't open their mouths. They knew who that woman was, and they let that be a mystery all that time. I don't understand that. What I do understand is, having a long-term story I needed to tell. And I wanted to write that book from the time I was 10 years old, and so I finally did. In that way, it was very cathartic and very healing to get my first book out there. After raising three kids and going through whatever I went through at that stage of my life. To move on. Those were all cathartic things. The story itself was not so cathartic. It's not easy to spend all that time with somebody like that in the archives with it hearing his voice. That wasn't an easy thing. And that wasn't healing at all. That was more, I don't want to call it traumatic, because I don't think it was traumatic. It was just difficult. That was difficult. The writing of that book was tough. But it was, it was healing from that book.
Frank: Back to the clergy scandal, I did have some friends who told me it happened to them. At an early age, and then 30 years later, they just put it away, and then in their mid-40s they just woke up in the middle of the night realizing, oh my God, everything from my work, my family, the way I raised my kids, the woman I married, it was all affected by that unresolved trauma.
Liza: That's right.
Frank: And they've needed to be that way for 30-plus years to heal themselves, even though they were causing damage, and they look back, realizing, all right, I have to acknowledge and move forward. The thing I got from your book in the third chapter was there was that healing process that you deserve to have. That just being ten years old with a relationship with your mother.
Liza: With my mother, you know, that never really healed. But it, you know, when the galleys came out of that book, I said, okay, let's sit down. Let's sit down. We'll read it together. I'll read it to you because by that time she wasn't really all there. And she said, "Well, why am I not going to like it?" I said, "Well, it's about my childhood," and she said, "Oh, no, I'm good. I'm good." And she told the cleaning lady I want to be dead by Christmas. She did not want to be alive when that one came out. And man, she succeeded. I don't know. It's a complicated thing. This kind of art. It's a complicated thing.
Chris: I will say that it's fascinating to me growing up on Cape Cod, having a certain idea or vision of what this place is. And then with you, especially meeting Frank and working on the Lady of the Dunes documentary. In the book and your book, The Babysitter and your experiences with Tony Costa, it changed my perspective of Cape Cod at least back in the 60s and 70s, but not in a bad way. It made it more interesting and fascinating that this was a real period of time in a place that I've known my whole life.
Liza: I think that's what good art is meant to do, right? It's to affect you in that way. Not necessarily change your perspective, but maybe add to it. I mean, it was something you yearned for the rest of your life, even with a serial killer in it, you know? Because we didn't know. And my sister, I think, has the best line from any of the reactions to this book, where she said, you know, I used to tell people about our experiences on the Cape when we were small. And I get people going at a cocktail party, regaling them with the Provincetown stories. And other people don't think it's as funny as we do. And that's how we dealt with it. That's how we dealt with it. We made it funny. We were like, oh, yeah. So I don't know. There was some guy; he was chewing up nurses. We would conflate the stories as kids. So we knew something had happened. But we never connected it to Tony. But remember the Richard Spector murders in Chicago? So is that his name? It's not Spector. It's Speck, right?
Chris: Yes
Liza: We conflated that with what we knew was happening in Provincetown. And so we thought nurses were being killed in Provincetown. We didn't really put it together. We just thought we were awfully close to it, weren't we? And so we would laugh about it. She's dodged that bullet. Have another gin and Tonic, you know? And so that's how we dealt with it. And as I learned from writing this book, it's not uncommon to deal with it like that. People get this very weird sense of what's funny because the danger was so close and you. Just don't process it. You don't process it. My parish priest was on the spotlight list.
Frank: Oh, wow.
Liza: Yeah. And he's in my book, but I didn't find that I don't think I found out he was on the list until. After the book was written. But maybe I knew it. But yeah, my parish priest was on that list.
Frank: I got to be an extra in the movie Spotlight.
Liza: Really?
Frank: Yeah, I got to be in a Best Picture. You can see my shoulder. So I'm not in the Best Picture, but my shoulder is in the Best Picture. So I'm like one of 3,000 Boston Globe employees. So I'm a little feather in my cap.
Liza: Yeah, but I'm glad it changed your perspective, Christopher, or just added to your perspective. Because, it really, the way people can corrupt a place is unfortunate. Because I think now, from what I hear and what I see online, it's not that much, but Provincetown has been corrupted in a lot of ways. Money corrupts in a certain way. And I know everyone loves their town. But when you're pushing people out, and you're the Portuguese community that I witnessed. And that I was wrapped up in is I think really been affected by the gentrification of the place, which is kind of a bummer.
Frank: I've seen so many colleagues that, you know, they came here in the 1970s and 80s. And bought oceanfront property for $300,000. And they still have the home in Manhattan. They've had to sell their home in Wellfleet, Truro, and Provincetown in order to stay on the island. So even people that have money are realizing we can't have it. Imagine every blue-collar worker on the Cape; it's very difficult. So it's 10 years from now; I was going to say 20, but I think 10 years from now, you'll see a huge chunk of the current community is dispossessed financially. Where they're going to be washashores someplace else.
Liza: That's right. That's right. And you know, my sister, my sister who remembers much, much less of this than I. She said, "Your job is to tell; my job is to just do what I'm going to do over here because I don't want to remember any of it. I don't want to deal with it. Bought a house two miles from the cemetery and lived in it for 10 years. She's like, where, where is this? I said, read the book. So you know, I mean, and, but came back to Truro to try and undo something, right? To try and undo something that was part of her fabric. And that fucked her up, quite frankly. So, you know, that was part of the reason for writing the book was, to just get a handle on exactly what happened, get my memories on paper so that I could move on.
Chris: Has there ever been a thought of making the book into a movie or something like that?
Liza: Yeah, there are a lot of, a lot of, you know, we've had a lot of irons in the fire. We've never had anybody bite on it. We're in no rush. Yeah, there has been, but to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure we've met the right person yet. Because a lot of times the conversation went like this: oh, well, we can film it on the Northwest coast. Well, I don't want you to film it on the Northwest coast. Well, we've got to save money. Well, then let's not make it because there is no place else like Provincetown. And if you try to recreate it on the Oregon coast, you're nowhere. So you don't have the same light; the quality of the light there is unlike anything else in the world. So there were a lot of people who wanted to do a lot of different things. We took a lot of meetings, and none of them panned out really. Some of them came close, but I'm a big believer that when the student is ready, the teacher appears. And so I think that's probably true with this project too. And the time comes, the time will come, and we'll know it when it comes. And it'll be somebody who wants to film it, who feels it the way we felt it. It's really important. And so in a way, it's not a bad thing that hasn't happened yet. I hope it happens. I guess I hope it happens. I don't want to put up with a lot of stuff from, you know, local people that were involved in that story and still live there. I don't want to see that happen. So I'm really in no rush. It is a story that is still not fully told. And I don't know if it'll ever get fully told. We'll see.
Chris: Yeah, just yesterday, when we were driving around to different places in Eastham and we found Sydney's childhood home, and we actually went by it, and it's sometimes things like that bring it home that, you know, this was a real person, a real story. For me, I had never been by that house. So it's interesting how that changes your perspective on things. I think that was the same for me with the Lady of the Dunes: the more I heard about her as a person, and then with it getting solved, it took her from being a legend to being real.
Liza: Yeah, I think that's so important. What you just said about understanding that these are people's lives, real lives, like people are born and they walk around and they eat and they drink and they work and they love and they hate and all of those things. And then we talk about them, as Frank said, like a victim. And I had written years ago, I had written another screenplay years ago. I might have been, I don't think I was even 40, and my kids were asleep at night, and it was called A String of Victims. And the title has always stayed with me because when you look, think about this story, and you think about Sydney Monzon and you think about her sister Linda. When something like this happens, the tentacles of a story like this are very far-reaching. And there are people walking around right now on the South Shore of Massachusetts going to visit Christine's grave on a regular basis, one another of his victims and grieving her still. And that's true of Sydney too. People are grieving her still. She was a real human being, and her life was cut ridiculously short because of, you know, because she got mixed up with the wrong guy. And it happens to a lot of women, actually, in this world. They're just not all serial killers.
Chris: What are your thoughts about what you were doing yesterday in this short film? What are your hopes for it? Because we got a lot of great footage. It was a really great time.
Liza: I thought some of it online. Yeah, I was really excited to see it. I was really excited to see her grave.
Chris: And we actually, we had a reporter photographer from the Cape Cod Times, come and interview us.
Frank: So my thought of it is, I'll do a crappy horror film and I'll start calling out to the Chamber of Commerce, Town Halls. And there's a sense of being NIMBY. Oh, not in my backyard. We don't need a werewolf or a vampire or a zombie film. But I'll find a community that embraces, yeah, we'll get you some free hotels or free pizza. Or we'll get you the permits. We'll help you out with location scouting. I just feel, for yesterday, Chris, everything was working out. The weather was fantastic. The way the sun was coming in, the sun was being right on Sydney’s grave. And I thought, interesting. Now, that could just be because the sun is at 9.30 going through the tree branches. But when we visited her high school, the beach that she used to go to, her home, it just felt like she was along for the ride with us. Everything was working out where it's like, you know, we’re not being pulled over, everything just seems, we're all happy. We're all eager to tell this little short film to honor this woman's legacy. And I just felt, you know, we're in the right place. It's a beautiful day on Cape Cod. But that's for any film I do. If you get that kick back, you go, no, the community doesn't want it, or what are we really trying to do? We're trying to sell a book. We're trying to make some money at the box office. I just feel if there's that opportunity, Liza, that babysitter ever was to see. The light of day as a future film, it'd probably be one of the greatest films ever to come out on Cape Cod. Because we're talking about the 60s on Cape Cod, we’re talking drug culture. Not so much murder mystery, but it's that true crime essence, which is a billion-dollar Industry. And the book is also self-help, which is another billion-dollar industry. So why not make The Babysitter? The overall message is there, Liza, and I can’t say that about the other books.
Liza: I mean, I know what the soundtrack will be. I dreamt it years ago. I know the opening scene. I dreamt it with this when I dreamt about the soundtrack. So I think you're right when you say she was a long for the ride. What were you saying something about an angel on your shoulder? It sort of feels like that. You know, that's a cliché for a reason. The spirit of this book. I really want, if it's going to be made in that way, I really want the spirit of it to be on the screen as well. And that's what you're talking about when you're talking. And when I looked at the footage online, I could just see it online. I thought, this is so good. Look at that. You could feel it.
Frank: We wrapped at 1:11, 111 we wrapped. I go, okay, we're wrapping. It says that something's out there. And I just felt that there's, there's a power there. It's like a movie that I keep telling my wife we have to see next month: I play Rocky. Because I'm from an Italian-American background. And Stallone mentions that when I wrote that in three days. It wasn't just me writing. I was pushed by a force other than myself to tell this story about a man trying to go the distance. So I truly feel that too. Not when I'm making crappy horror films. When I'm doing something that, you know what, we're getting a woman's name back. We're doing something with changing the way people think. And there's a power behind that. I mean, we're just the vehicle of what we're producing.
Liza: And I hope that Sydney's sister somehow, some way, Frank, can see something from it. That will give her some peace. Because I know from what I've heard, just from what I've heard around, that she didn't get much peace. She blamed herself. And so that's too bad because it was not her fault.
Chris: I fully believe, just based on, so I've known Frank now for five and a half years. And I've worked with him on several things. And I stand by the fact that he has the best intentions. With these, with Sydney, I mean, with the Lady of the Dunes. I was way more involved. And I believe that will come through, come back around. You know, all I can say is that I grew up with the Lady of the Dunes' mystery. And if you had told Teenage Me that I would be not only would I be a part of the conclusion to this story,. But that I would be standing there at her son's wedding.
Liza: Did you go to her son's wedding?
Chris: Yes. There are stories that surround my life since I've met Frank. I said, "It's been like a living in a movie." I mean, all three of us, we were out behind the Pine Grove cemetery at the “Garden.”
Liza: I was just going to say that. That's funny you said that.
Chris: These things like that. But it's also like the Lady of the Dunes book. I didn't make anything from that. I did it because I wanted the person behind the Lady to be found. And just like Frank said, "Give her her name back." That was the whole intention.
Liza: You were driven by it.
Chris: Yes.
Frank: Chris and I accidentally interrupted the ceremony at St. Peter's cemetery. And Richard introduced me to his daughter, who was the Lady of the Dunes ' granddaughter. And I thought, we win. At the end of the day, for everything that happened. The same thing happened when I got to meet Sydney's niece, who they named after Sydney, and she had the same green eyes. We had coffee in Northampton. I just looked across the table. I thought, "Sydney won. There's still a legacy; there's still a family." At the end of the day, what things happened? We're moving forward. And I think it was really rewarding that we got to say that, "Hey, we helped out." We were just a little footnote in that story.
Liza: Yeah. Yeah. That's big.
Chris: I'm tying that in because hearing you, Liza, talk about The Babysitter book. You even mentioned that you take out the rumors and the sensationalism. You're telling the human story, which is why I believe, whether a movie is made this year or 10 years from now, that it's all going to come out positively. You could have easily written and exaggerated things to sell books, but you told the reality. And so, I feel like when you do that, you get yours back. Karma works in both ways. Good and bad.
Liza: You know, I had someone not that long ago. At a book event because I'm still doing book events for The Babysitter. And she said to me, it was a big group of women, which is always a dangerous place to be. And she said to me, and I'll never forget her as long as I live." She said, "You know what? I could not finish that book." Now, there are a room full of maybe 25 women whom I don't know. And I said, "Tell me about that." And she said, "Did you have to use that language?" And I said, "Well, here's the thing about writing a memoir: if you don't find a third rail, when you know where you touch it, you're gone. If you don't find the center of the story and tell the truth, your readers are going to know that you're not telling the truth. And so, because that's the way they spoke, I had to tell the truth and use that language." Shut her right up. She was my best friend for the rest of the evening. The point being that unless you try, nobody is going to tell the whole truth. Because it's the truth as I know it. That's how I remember it. That's what memoir is. It's memory. It's, you know, trying to get that on the page. That's how I remember it. And I'm sure that I got some things wrong. You know, I'll say something to my son. And he’ll go, "It didn't happen like that." I'm like, "Yes, it did." He's like, "No, Mom, I'm going to tell you why." It didn't happen like that. So, I don't know. We're human, you know? We're human, and exploitation has absolutely nothing to do with the creative process. You're either drawn into it, or you're not. And they're following along with us.
Chris: What have you got going on currently, Liza, anything new that you're working on?
Liza: I have a new book. Okay, it's called The List: The Contrabands And The Unfinished Story of American Freedom. And as a writer, when you find a story that hasn't been told yet, you freak out. You can't believe it. And you have to tell it. And I found a story related to my own family. I was doing some family history research. And I found a story that hadn't been told yet. And that is the story of the first Africans who freed themselves. You know, how many times have you and I heard Lincoln freed the slaves? Well, guess what? No, he didn't. They freed themselves. And so, Lincoln himself will tell you, if you read some of his letters, that he reacted or responded to events. But he did not create them. And as a president, he responded with policy. But he did not free the slaves. And had he lived, he would have told us that. And I’m convinced of it. Because I'm studying these people who were totally left off the historical record. 800,000 of them in 300, basically, refugee camps in this country. During the Civil War. You ever heard this story? No. Because nobody knows this story. Because our history is based on military history. And the generals, the history of the generals. And that's what they took in at the National Archives. So, I'm writing the story of the 800,000 people. In 300camps around the country.
Chris: And do you have a timeline for when that's going to be out for people?
Liza: I don't. I don't. I'm working right now on a documentary and a draft.
Chris: That's awesome. As far as The Babysitter. You said you're still doing book events. Do you have anything coming up?
Liza: Not that I can think of. This was the thing that was coming up. But every now and then there's a book club that reaches out. When I moved to this neighborhood, they found out somehow. I think my husband goes around talking about it. So he's on the golf course talking about it. And the next thing I know, they want me to come to their book club. So, you know, I walked in there, and I hardly knew these women. But they're a great group of women. And I said, well, you guys all know a lot more about me than I do about you. So I always start there. But so I still do. You know, there's a big writers' community here which I've not delved into because I've had so many other things to do. But maybe I will sometime. There's a lot of published authors down here. In one, you know, form or another. A lot of people self-published. And the publishing industry is changing very rapidly right now. So we'll see what happens. You know, I have people to reach out to when I'm ready. Still, my babysitter website is still active. It is. And people can reach me through that website. I also, you know, it's going to be soon. It's going to change just a little bit, and we're going to add the new book to it. And some of the other things we're doing down in Virginia.
Chris: I'll make sure I put links in the podcast notes and then in the video as well.
Liza: That'd be great. That'd be great. I'm so glad to see you guys.
Frank: I hate to bring up. I hate to bring up another crappy horror film that we did that we titled a Cape Cod Cthulhu.
Chris: Hey, wait, I was in that film.
Frank: You were; that was your acting debut, but because the title was Cape Cod, we had a lot of views on Tubi. I thought, oh my God, because people saw Cape Cod. They clicked on it, not knowing it was a low-budget horror film. But it sells itself: anything that's Cape Cod related. It could be a romantic comedy, a murder mystery. There's a built-in audience for that. And I was like, all right, we'll just put Cape Cod in every title we do now moving forward. No, we just did a little short film for Sydney. I'm doing a sci-fi comedy next month. There are a lot of things on the back burner which you have to. But as Chris knows, I like getting people in a room. I love trying to get something going in production. So that's not going to stop. Hopefully if The Babysitter is out there, I like to see that get pushed to the front of the line and hopefully made it to an amazing, amazing film.
Liza: But when is your piece going to come out?
Frank: Honestly, maybe a nice Christmas surprise. We're probably having something available. And we reached out. Everybody on the Outer Cape wants to have it on public access. So it's available for free. I don't want to call it an appetizer. But I think it's hopefully something that can grow into something more. Because, on its own, it's a great story. But it's also connected with so much else in Cape Cod lore, Cape Cod history, that I think it's just a chapter of the overall story.
Liza: Yeah. Great. Can't wait to see the whole thing.
Chris: Well, this has been great. I could just keep going on and on. But I'm sure you guys have got things you want to do. I just want to let you know how much I appreciate you both being here and just you guys in general. I mean, I don't say it like hyperbolic that the last five and a half years of my life has been like a movie. There's been, I have people in my life that want to hear about what the latest thing that's going on in my life is. Whether it's Lady of the Dunes or Sydney or when we were out in the woods behind the cemetery in Truro.
Liza: Crazy stuff, right, Chris?
Chris: It really is. I grew up thinking Cape Cod's boring. I can't wait to move away. And now I'm like, wait a minute. All this stuff happened here.
Liza: It’s my great pleasure. Thanks for asking. I'm really glad to do it.
Chris: That's what I was going to end with. Is there anything that you want to say to end with?
Liza: Not really, other than to just say that I'm glad the story still has legs. The story itself still has legs. I mean, how many books have been written about Costa now, Frank? Four, five.
Frank: Enough.
Liza: Well, and Avis is going to write her story too. I wish she would. I'm dying to read her book. I hope she does. You know, that’s what I want to say: Avis, write the book. That's what I want to say.
Frank: There you go. Well, you know, Chris with podcast. You could do books or films. You want the audience to resonate. You want it to basically say, hey, I read your book five, 10, 20 years ago. And you still have that connection with somebody who looks at your art and resonates. So, you know, it's nice to make a little money. It's like they get a little fame. But the big goal is to have your work be seen. And hopefully they take it, and they do something with it. Otherwise, it's not worth it.
Liza: I know we don't do it for the money. We do it for the love.
Chris: Well, thank you so much. Yeah, thank you so much, Liza and Frank, for being a part of this. And, you know, anytime you want, anytime, you know, I can be of service. You know, I'd love to do this again or meet up. And Frank, you know, I'm easy to find if you need anything from me.
Liza: I'll hit you up when the new book comes out, Chris.
Chris: Oh, absolutely.
Liza: Okay.
Chris: Well, thank you so much.
Liza: Thank you, sir.
Chris: Have a great rest of the day.
Liza: It's great seeing you two.
Frank: Be well, take care.
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